• rtxn@lemmy.worldM
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      25 days ago

      Most people were conditioned by more “user-friendly” systems to ignore the content of error messages because only an expert can make sense of “Error: 0x8000000F Unknown Error”. So they don’t even try, and that’s how they put themselves in a Yes, do as I say! situation.

      • Boomer Humor Doomergod@lemmy.world
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        25 days ago

        It’s not even obscure, context dependent errors. I’ve had many professional system administrators not understand what “connection was closed by peer” meant.

      • A_norny_mousse@feddit.org
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        25 days ago

        But most error messages are in plain English first (plus some numbers and codes).
        No, they see white (gray actually) blocky text on a black background, they think the machine is broken and go into panic mode. Instead of reading.
        Which is kinda what you said.

    • croizat@lemmy.ml
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      25 days ago

      And because people don’t read error messages, many applications/sites/etc don’t even put them, or if they do they either don’t have any public facing documentation to actually figure out what that code means, or they do and it might as well be nothing

    • alecsargent@lemmy.zip
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      25 days ago

      People who don’t read error messages or do not take the time to see what is going on and just come to the technician/mechanic/doctor saying “it doesn’t work” or some half-assed hypothesis piss me off so bad.

      I know that at some point we all do a little of this in our lifes, but some people don’t seem to be able to read one goddamn paragraph ever.

      • faythofdragons@slrpnk.net
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        25 days ago

        To be fair, techs don’t usually talk to the people who can read, so they’re only ever going to see idiots. There are competent people in the world, they’ll just never need your help, so you don’t see them.

        Last time I called tech support, it was for a Dell, and I interrupted their speech to tell them I already looked up the diagnostic. They asked which numbers were lit on the error panel to confirm I had the right diagnostic, and passed me directly to who I needed to talk to. I only called tech support because the cpu socket died and I was putting in a warranty claim, otherwise they would have never even heard from me because I could just install a new motherboard myself.

        edit: speeling

        • mere@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          5 days ago

          THIS. The people who actually read the error messages aren’t going to stop there, they’re going to look up said error message, find a solution on their own, and continue with their day without having to interact with another human.

      • rtxn@lemmy.worldM
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        25 days ago

        At this point, if a student brings in a laptop, explains what doesn’t work, and leaves me to diagnose and fix it, I consider it a good report because it means that the student didn’t get any overconfident ideas. If a student also explains what they were doing when a thing failed, I’m giving them preferential treatment.

        Then there are comp-sci students who attempted something. I had one who disassembled their laptop and tore a ribbon cable. I had one who plugged in a random mis-matched RAM stick that turned out to be busted and wondered why Windows kept crashing. I had one who completely fucked up the registry. I had one who wanted to install Ubuntu for dual booting and accidentally wiped the entire SSD.

        I would rather spend an hour babysitting their computers than an entire afternoon un-fucking something they thought they could handle. If it were up to me, I would restrict the crap out of their user accounts, but the faculty leaders insist, against empirical evidence, that they’re smart enough.

      • Elvith Ma'for@feddit.org
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        25 days ago

        but some people don’t seem to be able to read one goddamn paragraph ever.

        I had a problem with my car. It felt strange while driving. Made some unusual noise. Then a bit later the motor warning light came on.

        I went to the garage, told them about the warning light and what I noticed the time before, what I suspected and such. A short while after the mechanic came to me and asked for a few details, as my description “wasn’t helpful” and the repair would be much faster with more details that told them where to look etc. Turns out the guy who checked in my car only noted “a warning light is on” and nothing else of my ramblings.

        So sometimes it’s also paying attention to what might be important and relaying information.

    • hansolo@lemmy.today
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      25 days ago

      They don’t.

      Undoing self-owns like ignoring available information is the basis for 40% of the economy.

  • branno@lemmy.zip
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    16 days ago

    now people just “ask GPT”… “I asked chatGPT”.

    my answer is “dude, GPT just copypasted from the fucking manual so you don’t have to read. congrats, you didn’t learn a fucking thing.”

    it’s depressing

  • NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world
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    25 days ago

    I work in maintenance, people act like I’m doing magic, but 90% of the time all I’ve done is read the fucking manual, the other 10% is just basic awareness.

  • BradleyUffner@lemmy.world
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    25 days ago

    For appliances at least, 95% of “the manual” today is useless CYA safety disclosures in 17 different languages. Manuals today rarely contain useful information.

    • onslaught545@lemmy.zip
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      25 days ago

      The actual manual is usually hidden somewhere on it for repair techs to find. For my oven it was taped on the back.

    • evasive_chimpanzee@lemmy.world
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      25 days ago

      Until you do like step one of taking an appliance apart, and realize that the real manual is marked “for technician use only”, and it’s hidden inside of the appliance.

      My washer and dryer both have good manuals complete with circuit diagrams under the top once i take a few screws out. My chest freezer has one taped up under the hatch where the compresser sits. My refrigerator has one hidden in the door hinge.

      • jj4211@lemmy.world
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        25 days ago

        Yeah, my parents were about to throw out an oven that would keep shutting off. I pull it away from the wall and boom, wiring diagram. Take out the ohm meter, figure out that the resistance across the temperature probe went to near zero when steam intruded through a gap in the crimp. 5 dollar part and it was good to go for years to come (the new part was crimped in a simpler, more robust way).

  • FiveMacs@lemmy.ca
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    25 days ago

    try to RTFM for Microsoft…lol shits updated too much and all the old information is still there and outdated. convoluted mess of shit is all they are

    still, RTFM…always

    • B-TR3E@feddit.org
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      25 days ago

      Keeping the common user stupid is the better part of Mickeysoft’s business model. The proposed solution for every problem is guessing what MS’ silly nomenclature might actually mean while poking around in GUIs that do nothing but keep you busy. Then buy something from their app store. RTFM doesn’t work in a system that’s inconsistent and undocumented by design. That’s not the fault of RTFM as a concept but a travesty of it.

      • Natanox@discuss.tchncs.de
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        25 days ago

        And FTFM. Find the fucking manual.

        And perhaps TTFM. Translate the fucking manual either from broken chinese-english or the tech-lingo + missing context information which is almost every manpage on Linux, making it nearly useless for the average user unless you got hours and hours of time to understand all the adjacent concepts and commands.

  • Bubbaonthebeach@lemmy.ca
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    25 days ago

    One of my pet peeves is how many new things do not come with a manual and I have to go and find one. I am one of the fortunate ones who can learn by reading and then trying. It seems that many cannot.

    • ExhibiCat@lemmynsfw.com
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      24 days ago

      Yes in the 80s electronic equipment like TVs even came with electrical schematics in the box. Not really intended for most end users (repairing a CRT is quite dangerous if you don’t know what you’re doing) but to help the repair guy. No extended warranty scams, no approved dealers get parts only. Just all the help they could offer.

      Now there’s a one page leaflet in the box showing where the on button is and for the rest you’ll have to find the pdf.

      Software came with thick ring binders describing every feature and updates came with inserts to put at the right places in the binders. Manuals actually were useful.

  • ragebutt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    25 days ago

    I mean this is true and yes but in an age where documentation is increasingly terrible, the idea of a service manual for something you bought is basically a foreign concept, and half the shit you buy doesn’t come with a meaningful manual does it really apply the same way?

    Like sure, knowing the post error codes on my motherboard or linux stuff is possible because it’s documented. But the appliance example? That is increasingly false and those manuals are increasingly becoming 5 page idiot guides: “here is how to turn the system on and off, here is how to turn heat up/down, contact authorized vendor for issues” and if you don’t do that then you void your warranty. Any more robust documentation is locked to “authorized vendors” and costs $$$, if it even exists (and doesn’t just say “replace system when it stops working correctly)

    • Bazoogle@lemmy.world
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      25 days ago

      I partly disagree with what you say. The subscription appliance garbage absolutely do lock advanced user manuals behind paywalls. But it isn’t not rare (at least right now) to still find products with good user manuals. There are usually separate documents with one being a “quick setup” and another being a full “user manual”. Avoid the worst offenders and you should be okay.

      • ragebutt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        25 days ago

        Becoming increasingly rare and we are speaking on different things. You are talking about a manual that explains how to make your washing machine wash. That is important, yes, but I am talking about a manual that explains how an appliance works.

        the days of a manual explaining anything like an error code are basically dead. Name one appliance manufacturer that lists anything beyond the most basic of troubleshooting (“turn it off and back on”)

        Like go back and look at an appliance manual from the 70s/80s/maybe 90s and you will see a more robust explanation of what to do when things go wrong. The further back you go the more likely you will see parts numbers, circuit diagrams, or be able to order a service manual that has such information.

        We expect this shit level of documentation because we live in a throwaway culture that has tolerated this pisspoor level of documentation for decades. “Oh the washer isn’t working? It’s showing an E-05 error? Guess we better just go buy a new washer” or pay the manufacturer $120 for a “service charge” to find out that code means the latch sensor died and it’s a $30 part that is a simple 5 minute job except you can’t get the part because they won’t sell it to you

  • Postimo@lemmy.zip
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    25 days ago

    The idea that manuals in linux are a good way to learn and understand new software is peak linux neckbeard bs, and I will die on this hill. I congratulate OP on the exact type of autism that lets them feel this is an effective and useful method for learning new software, but if there is desire to have a greater adoption of linux maybe its bad to be snarky at folks for not instantly understand the terminal based documentation conventions of some dudes in the 70s. Maybe an alphabetical* list of all possible options is okay for referencing or searching, but is objectively insane way to learn or understand a problem.

    • tired_n_bored@lemmy.world
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      24 days ago

      THIS. I feel like linux man pages are as useful as an Analytical mechanics textbook for someone who just wants to drive. Like yes, sure, it’s amazing we have such a detailed documentation but for God’s sake just introduce basic usages first

    • Noxy@pawb.social
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      24 days ago

      ssh connects and logs into the specified destination, which may be specified as either [user@]hostname or a URI of the form ssh://[user@]hostname[:port]

      ssh [admin@]192.168.1.1
      ssh: Could not resolve hostname ]192.168.1.1: No address associated with hostname
      

      That’s how I would interpret that part of the man page had I no familiarity with ssh. It doesn’t seem reasonable to expect the reader to know what those brackets mean.

      • AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world
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        24 days ago

        You get to learn the notation conventions with <> and [] fairly early on. Maybe a very new user would make that mistake. If he doesn’t get it fairly quick, maybe computers aren’t for him.

        • Noxy@pawb.social
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          24 days ago

          BS. I’ve been using linux for over 20 years and I still don’t know what those mean. I can only guess from context. It’s a stupid convention to just use symbols like that and never explain it.

            • Noxy@pawb.social
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              24 days ago

              Following the openbsd example from the original comment I replied to, it has absolutely nothing to say about what brackets mean, so this advice would not be helpful for an openbsd system: https://man.openbsd.org/man

              On my personal linux system (arch derivative, by the way), it at least mentions brackets meaning optional, but only in the context of arguments:

                 [-abc]             any or all arguments within [ ] are optional.
              

              I think this would trip up some new users. The destination, with or without the username to connect as, may not seem like an “argument” to a new user since it doesn’t have a dash before it like the example does

    • rtxn@lemmy.worldM
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      25 days ago

      It’s a good thing there are other resources, then. You can read tldr-pages. You can look at various official and unofficial wikis. You can look at Stackoverflow. You can look at Youtube tutorials. You can ask other people. Hell, you can ask a chatbot.

      If the average user is unwilling to do that, maybe it’s better that Linux does not see a wider adoption.

      • is the fact that people can with effort and error figure out how to do something a reason not to make it easier for them to do?

        I mean

        you can in theory write multi-threaded bug-free C code – just read the docs and the specs and the source of your libs and never ever do something that seems to work but is subtly fatally incorrect

        and yet we still have golang and rust and many other options to do things more safely and easily

        if someone wants to use Linux but doesn’t want to memorize the Hundred Mandatory Commands and Thousand Flags lest they accidentally cat > /dev/sda, why shouldn’t there be a system for them?

  • downhomechunk@midwest.social
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    25 days ago

    I take RTFM more broadly to mean that I at least put in some effort to solve the problem myself. I googled, checked forum posts, read the man page, opened a config file or two and read some comments, etc. So I get offended when I get RTFM’d.

    If you can’t reply without being a dick, then keep scrolling! Why participate in a forum where people with less experiece ask questions in the first place? That time could be better spent reading your shop vac manual or figuring out who you need to blow to save $700 on a dishwasher repair.